Is it possible to “over adjust”? If an adjustment means to make right then I would think it is impossible to over adjust. In the end it is the innate intelligence of the practice member’s body that takes the force introduced by the chiropractor and uses it to correct a vertebral subluxation. It really does not matter where that force comes from. The claim that by promiscuously pounding on the spine, we can cause the body to lose its ability to correct its own subluxations is invalid. The body will take any force available and use it to correct a vertebral subluxation. In fact the innate intelligence through its innate forces is trying to correct a vertebral subluxation all the time. It is just that it does not have a sufficient amount of innate forces to accomplish that task. That doesn’t mean we should be promiscuously introducing universal forces. The objective of the chiropractor should be to introduce as little force as possible, just enough to add to the already created innate forces being created, to accomplish the adjustment. Is there another point of view?
I agree, the problem with “over-adjust” seems to be in word choice.
I believe there are different perspectives.
Too much force could be interpreted as too great an amplitude, velocity, frequency or any combination of these. All subject to interpretation.
Ideally, I would think the amount (depth/amplitude, velocity, frequency) of force delivered by the OCOR and those from all other sources should be enough for the innate intelligence of the body to use to accomplish the correction and more.
My question then becomes can the forces be too little (amplitude, frequency, velocity)?
Don, you are correct, the “amount” should be exactly what is needed. That is where the philosophy and the art, come together. If the forces can be too much, manifested as an external invasive force reaction, then the forces can also be too little, I would think.
When the Concept of Force is discussed Let me refer all of you to Post: ‘Thank You Sir Issac’, where Claude States(see below).
Are we all talking about Force here, or Energy? They are different, aren’t they? How can our estimation of too much or too little be applicable to the concept of Force as per the Chiropractic Lexicon(see below).
Claude Lessard 08/13/2014, 11:52 pm:
If you read past blogs, you will notice that I refer to force from the 33 principles of Chiropractic’s Basic Science as INSTRUCTIVE INFORMATION… which is strictly METAPHYSICAL. The function of METAPHYSICAL intelligence is to create METAPHYSICAL force (pri.8) which is instructive information. Since E=MC2, e/matter is physical. When Joseph states: “they have allowed “force” to be manifested or expressed and viewed as a physical entity, energy, rather than a metaphysical phenomenon, which is how the chiropractic Triune of Life sees it”, I agree with him. With the exception of objective chiropractors, everyone else looks at the second component of the triune, FORCE, as being energy which is physical. It is NOT true. FORCE is METAPHYSICAL as it is created by METAPHYSICAL intelligence (pri.8). –
– It’s is not only semantic. It is as Joseph’s book titled: TOWARD A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF CHIROPRACTIC PHILOSOPHY. Time has come for us to let go, WITHOUT CONDEMNATION, of the faulty reasoning of the past due to lack of information. The past, was an ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY step to go through to get to where we are now. September 18, 1895 set in MOTION a movement called CHIROPRACTIC that has the power to TRANSFORM the world by empowering and enabling people to fully express the innate forces of the innate intelligence of the body.
I am requesting, for the sake of clarification and perhaps discussion,
What active processes take place, along with the accurate definitions and their properties (physical and/or metaphysical), from the point of the adjustive thrust to the correction of the subluxation.
Terms like Force and it’s apparent multiple definitions
Eg. Force as defined within the triune (metaphysical), Force as defined within EIF, with it’s seemingly reference to physical Energies applied, Force as defined within Internal resistive Forces, again another seemingly Physical reference.
Chiropractic defines it’s objective thru the WHY of the 33 principles.
P8 P10 P12 P15,16,23-26 reference force as a metaphysical component, with perhaps other physical references I might humbly and honestly might not be understanding.
Particularly with the usage, as per the Lexicon, of terminologies like
EIF and IRF which all seem to reference Force as a physical reality aka Newtons, Physics definition of Force. I thought that chiropractic meaning applied more to Energy as in e/matter. A confusion of terms, crucial terms I would say FORCE constitutes. Our Lexicon should be consistent in application and perhaps in understanding, which might be my own misunderstanding. That is why I am requesting someone else’s input into this matter (no pun intended).
Force
Energy
Universal Force – physical or metaphysical or both?
Force at the elemental level vs The Force applied by my hands to a patient during an adjustment – physical or metaphysical?
That’s why we get stuck in defining things like over adjusting as a possibility.
Sloppy usage of terms and perhaps still disagreements in the application of these terms.
Of course you can’t over adjust! Over manipulate? Yes.
And once again, Claude’s posting in ‘thank you sir issac’, I referred to (above), seems to suggest a different process taking place
From the possible Physical application of an adjustive thrust (maybe that adjustive thrust is a combination of both applied energy(physical) and force (information-metaphysical??)
To the correction of a subluxation.
Yes, wordy and confusing David has asked this perhaps naive, Chiro 101, stupid, overly discussed, improperly placed question, but non the less, in my imperfection, i would appreciate some clarification and this post, to over or under adjust, to be or not to be seems like an apropos place. And I thank you. 😉
David,
Is universal intelligence metaphysical or physical?
Claudius,
M e t a p h y s I c a l
You can’t honestly say that every one doesn’t get Force Wrong!
When I move my elbows together and torque that pisiform,
It’s matter in motion converting muscle chemistry matter into motion, converting matter into energy, transmitting energy from pisiform motion into vertemere matter via conduction?? And Force as a metaphysical conveyer of intelligent direction thru adaptation by ii into innate forces to remove the subluxation and the effects of subluxation within the limits of p24 and p6.
Am I answering my own question?
Are you Claude or Socrates?
Come on baby, lay it on me.
Answer MY Question bubala! 😉
Joe,
You mentioned the external invasive force reaction.
What is it called when the force delivered by the OCor is too little?
Is it in the lexicon?
If there isn’t one, I’l accept any term you give it. 🙂 I just need a label. This term may make it easier to communicate some ideas I have.
Thanks.
This is the problem with calling both what the chiropractor does and what the ii does, an adjustment. Chiropractors adjust patients, ii corrects subluxations. So yes, technically, a patient can be “over adjusted”, too forcibly or too frequently. Can they be over corrected? Of course not.
I think the proper term would be “over-thrusted upon”. Since subluxations are created by overwhelming external invading forces, that EIF could very well come from the hands of a chiro..
To BJ the terms were synonymous, he wrote in “The Specific”, There was a time in our history when we believed it was possible to
OVER-ADJUST a subluxation. At that time, we believed
SUBLUXATIONS could be ADJUSTED more frequently than was
necessary; and thus, in some unaccountable way, we “over-adjusted”
them. Today new concept enters. You can no more “over-adjust” than
you could be honest, more honest, or most honest. If it IS a
SUBLUXATION, it CAN BE ADJUSTED. If it IS ADJUSTED, it
cannot be more ADJUSTED; therefore “over-adjusting” is a mis-nomer
and is not correctly used, although presumably term will go on
thru our annals.
Universal force as a macro energy, that being an EIF is physical energy.
Universal force as part of the triune, is metaphysical, joining ui with matter at the elemental level.
Universal forces adapted by ii to form innate forces, which are metaphysical, are either physical forces (EIF), adjustive force adapted, OR universal force (elemental) and metaphysical, deconstructive and adapted by ii to innate forces (metaphysical)
This is why terms like Force or Adjustment, depending on context, seem to have different meanings.
This is a confusion. Maybe it’s me only.
To clarify, my post above was speaking of the physical properties of what a OCor would provide to the spine of the recipient/person. I choose to call that delivering “gentle, refined forces” into the spine. (Yes, the adjectives are subjective 🙂 I know.
That being said, I would agree with what Steve wrote above, there is a confusion of terms. I found the way to sort this out was to first assume the position that the ii of the body without any intervention at all from the hands of another could correct a subluxation. There need be only a provision of forces from something external in sufficient quantity and direction such that the ii of the body could use it (in summation with all other forces available to it) to make the correction of that vertebrae.
With that said, it would seem it inconsequential to me to say that the correction was made by any one source because in a way, it (the forces) comes from a variety of sources.
I have one caveat to this….I’ll post it separately though.
One caveat to the above thought:
Although there are many sources for the EIF’s ii could use, the provision of the OCors (refined, gentle, physical) forces are under their control to increase or decrease in velocity, amplitude, or any number of other characteristics before being delivers.
What are the implications of looking at how to apply these forces more effectively through inductive means or scientific inquiry?
David,
You asked: “Universal Force – physical or metaphysical or both?” Your answer that universal intelligence is metaphysical is correct. Therefore, according to the AUTHORITY of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, principle #8 states: “The function of intelligence is to create force”. Together, without condemnation, we deduce that the function of metaphysical universal intelligence is to create metaphysical universal forces. Now, we conclude that universal force is metaphysical. 😉
Claude,
EIF, Spinal Adjustive Force >>
Physical or Metaphysical??
David,
Is your educated intelligence involved in a “spinal adjustive force”? 😉
Claude,
I can’t get a direct answer out of you. Argh!
Yes, in the decision to direct energy, yes.
In what it appears as how chiropractic defines Force, No.
It would seem that force joins intelligence with matter. Intelligence and force are metaphysical. The energy is the expression of the force. The energy/matter interaction that is produced with the delivery of the spinal adjustive is physical. Yes/no.
EIF, same thing? Yes/no doctor do right?
Educated intelligence is only manifested (observed) thru its expression in energy/matter. That translates to energy administered into a hammer or into a Vertemere, or into some physical medium.
Force unites intelligence, any intelligence with e/matter, whether it’s elemental, biological (organic), or macro matter (Rock Paper Scissors Match), asteroids, car crashes, tools impacting matter, strumming a guitar, playing a tenor sax, knocking out sonny Liston, hittin a home run,etc. etc. etc.
From what I understand, Force alba chiropractic is always metaphysical.
Force Ala Physical science aka Newton is described as physical.
Chiropractic terminology EIF or IRF I think I can understand as metaphysical (that’s what my question was, but you know that), but I think some truly are thinking of ENERGY, not Force!
Thoughts
David,
A tale: “Remember the time when we were jamming with Trane that Sunday afternoon? His liver was alright then because it was 1947 I recall. Charlie Parker “Ko-Ko” arrived in the already jammed room. Even Trane’s wife, Alice, was on the piano, and Rashid, well he was jamming those drums like a bat out of hell. I think it was Jimmy Heath that came late, because the traffic on the LIE was all jammed up. Needless to say, that when Wayne Shorter’s mic got jammed, we all realized there were to many plugs jammed in the outlets. We were all shocked at Shorter’s reaction and, of course, it is sweet ole Alice who saved the day by giving us peanut butter and jam sandwiches with bottles of seven-ups. Those were our jamming days with the TRANE, brother, and we got quite some jams out of it.” Then end. 😉 –
Claude,
I dig your tail (ale). I No U R Knot B’in Forceeshus.
Where is that tale Claude? Or did you invent that, for my sake?
But seriously, specifically,
1. EIF’s: is the typical meaning that the typical OCer referring to Energy or Force? And if we can’t communicate per our Lexicon, then why have it?
PS I’m reading your tale, 1947, Trane, who could barely play (oh he could hear), at that historical bebop revelation aka KoKo point, and I’m sayin huh? And then I get it!
Claude,
Thanx
*********************
We’re jammin
We’re jammin
I wanna jam it wid you.
We’re jammin’, jammin’,
And I hope you like jammin’, too.
Claude,
I think you meant Charlie Parker “Bird”
“Ko-Ko” is a 1945 bebop recording, based on the chords of the song “Cherokee”. It marks the beginning of Bebop, as a musical invention developed by Charlie Yardbird and Dizzy Gillespie, which was essentially a newly improvised song based on the chords of another song, typically of the Tin Pan Alley type, but not necessarily, and uniquely stylized and harmonically rich with a greater assemblage of chord extensions, stylized particularly with the usage of flat 5ths and increased rhythmic complexity. It marks the beginning of modern jazz to some.
The Lexicon of Jazz is broad, rich musically and historically.
I Love the way you spin a yarn, splicing in the magic of jazz.
I wonder if you have truly heard the intelligence of jazz expressed as the force of this music, thru the sounds expressed by those instruments played by instrumentalists the likes of Trane or Bird or Pops?
Who do you dig? And
In all cases, as understood thru an ADIO Lexicon, FORCE means intelligent information. If there is reference to the word force, but the intent is represent the imparting of energy, it is the WHO who decides to fully understand the meaning and understanding of the abstraction called the Triune.
Since all e/matter that we refer to Exists, then the existence of metaphysical intelligence AND Force can be assumed and understood if it is you WHO desire to understand, to see the figures that create the shadows in the cave.
Most people see only matter, the shadow. We as chiropractors and understanding the Authority of the 33 principles, have the privilege to see thru our logic and intelligence those pointers to truths that first of all give us our chiropractic objective and second of all allow us to take a complete breath of the concept that we call ADIO
David,
It me WHO chose to invent that tale for your sake. So that I could tell you the story over again in as creative of a way as doable to educe from you your understanding of that which I posted over the past several years! 😉
I know I know, and I understood, as you see, I got your point. and it’s a good one.
My comment: If I understand the use and misuse of the Chiropractic Lexicon (eg. Force thought of as in EIF to mean Energy, or Thrust which is INCORRECT), I wonder how many OC’ers undertand that distinction, if I am correct at all, and for accuracy sake, since the intent of let’s say the term EIF might suggest those terms (energy or THRUST, ADJUSTIC THRUST), perhaps it is time to call it what it is.
EIE not EIF, although EIF is implicit in EIE(nergy).
Undertand?
It’s like we talk about the chiropractic adjustment as being a something that We deliver to the PM, but in actuality it really is something that that happens within a vertebrate organism, in our case, human beings. >> creates misunderstanding and miscommunication
or
as I’ve totally hackneyed this topic, but it’s an important one,
FORCE, being metaphysical is used all the time with my suspicion that those who use it (eg. EIF), are thinking about Energy or Thrust, which IS NOT FORCE. Particularly in that EIF means External Invasive Force. Invasive??? Force??? metaphysical information that unites intelligence with e/matter?? >> another misunderstanding and miscommunication .
What you think Doctor?
David,
Work with articles 116,117,118,119 and 387 in RWS textbook on pages, 76,78, 79, 80 and 322. Perhaps it will help you to choose the path less traveled of the chiropractic lexicon. AND… pleeaase DON”T get hung up on the anthropomorphism that RWS uses to describe innate intelligence.
Claude,
I read those RWS articles. Thank you for the reference. It’s mindset provides more and more, a template to comprehend Chiropratic.
After reading those articles I have this to say:
I think it is a profound shift of viewpoint, from what I can comprehend, that so much of what IS Chiropractic (ADIO viewpoint with a major premise foundation), constitutes Metaphysical (immaterial) Force, p10, joiner of intelligence and e/matter, carrier of the intent of intelligence as information, to be expressed within the e/matter in proportion to its related matters’ requirements or organization.
Intelligence IS.
Matter IS.
RWS highlights the Triune.
The heart and soul that bears this Triune is Vitalism, what we define as Life.
What provides the connection and conduit to carriy intelligent information, to be expressed?
What is it that offers a window between the immaterial and the material?
It is Force.
That is why EIF meets IRF and is highlighted by RWS and the Lexicon.
Mental force, EIF, IRF, Subluxation, Adjustment, Chiropractic touches a Big Idea.
David,
Would you do me a favor please?
Claude,
Sure. What?
David,
Now that you are in the CENTER of the forest, it is you WHO can choose to work from that CENTER! PlLEASE don’t move and practice from where you are RIGHT NOW!
Claude,
I’m trying to articulate, look within myself, at what gets in my way.
Yes I know I get in my own way but this is the process.
I do understand, I wish, I look for that day that I will stay centered in the forest.
Typically I might get to the center thru mental effort, reading, telling the story over and over, COTB, get in the zone that we’ve talked about, like a Trane, being able to maintain a continuously strong desire. But dipsycho gets in the way. Maybe it’s fear of success, failure, the need to be liked, etc. Sometimes I get to a centered place thru forgetting, becoming a bit numb, comfortably numb??, etc.
I do get there, but then I wander, into doubt, something, maybe laziness.
Typically, When I wake up in the morning, I’ve lost my center. The day ahead of me has to be put together thru my efforts, thru the various tasks I just spoke of, going to the gym, reframing my perspective. I have a host of Outside In techniques.
You see, the older I’ve gotten, in many ways the harder it’s gotten.
I’m smarter, wiser, but more rigid, and more reactive. I just want peace.
I’m perfectionistic but yes, perhaps my perfectionism is an excuse. I’m not able to sustain as you’ve called it, the paradox, not being able to avoid dipsycho. Educated dominating a belief in a greater power.
The philosophy, living by a philosophy, is very mental.
Too mental. What ever my passion is, It has to be deep in my heart and I guess when it has come to Chiropractic, maybe selling a service, I’m just very conflicted.
I don’t own it. Or it doesn’t own me.
The ADIO viewpoint rings true until I find myself fretting with my educated runeth over 😉
Hard for me to get on the horse. Very hard. Once I’m ridding, I’m pretty good, but I’m very self critical and hey, this is WHO I am or WHO I’ve chosen to be.
So now that I’ve discharged once again OK.
I David Suskin Choose to work from the Center, where Force sits In between intelligence and matter.
I David Suskin am a Force, committed to practicing the Chiropractic Objective. Period.