Can chiropractic philosophy exist is a darwinian evolutionary Model? Why or why not?
24 thoughts on “Q&A #38”
If I am correct in my interpretation of Darwinian; survival of the fittest; I say yes. Anything with life has but one purpose; strive to live. Having life allowed the intelligence within to to survive and will survive to the best of their ability under their [particular circumstance. Problems occur once we think we know what is better for the body and take actions to mold the body the we we educatedly see fit.
My understanding is that the innate design and function of a living body is adaptation, to adapt itself to whatever conditions are extant in order to survive, the only caveat being time and material.
My understanding of Darwinian “Evolution” is adaption: that which adapts to its environment successfully has a better chance to pass its ability to the next generation & so on through the generations, yielding “evolution”.
So, naturally, If you’re alive with interference you’ll live, survive, thrive, better without that interference. Chiropractors adjust to reduce interference, therefore those who are adjusted have a better chance to adapt successfully.
Works for me, even if I have slaughtered the actual constructs. 🙂
Hey Joe,
If we consider evolution the advancement of one form of being into another, ie. a one celled animal becoming a multi-celled animal or a monkey becoming a man, I think not. It seems Innate Intelligence or the group of laws we call by that name are very specific. Man gets man laws, tiger gets tiger laws, and amoeba gets amoeba laws.
According to Wiki, ” Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution. Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift.”…. Natural selection does not infer a purposeful/thoughtful stepping forward but merely taking all the random possibilities and removing the less functional ones. Furthermore, neither mutation or genetic drift sound like maintaining matter to me.
Therefore I have yet to reconcile these two ideas.
You are absolutely correct in noting that innate intelligence (the law of life) is very specific to each species (same roots for both words). Matter expresses force created by intelligence. That’s WHY instructive information is coded for specific matter maintaining it in existence and/or active organization. –
– As for reconciling “these two ideas”, look at it this way… The CAUSE of adaptation is the function of innate intelligence which is to ADAPT universal forces and matter… HOW innate intelligence does that is way beyond our educated intelligence. Mutation and genetic drift, both involve limitations of matter.
Claude, mutation and genetic drift both necessitate a positive species survival value which is the basis for evolution theory. Has science ever demonstrated an example of one?
The basis for evolution theory is natural selection which comes from nature (natura in latin which means “essential qualities and/or innate dispositions” according to wikipedia). Therefore the actual theory is based on the innate dispositions of a living thing. Sounds pretty much like a intelligence in matter giving to it “essential qualities” and maintain it in active organization. –
– The fact that evolutionists rejects the CAUSE of the major premise, is in no way problematic for chiropractic philosophy since the major premise is the START POINT of chiropractic. I mentioned many times before, chiropractic principles are INCLUSIVE of EVERY things in existence,EVERY “living things” and EVERY VERTEBRATA with regard to the practice of the chiropractic objective. I have people WHO choose to BE atheists and agnostic in my practice and I bet you had them too. Chiropractic is separate and distinct in so far as chiropractic deals with the LACVS for a full expression of the innate FORCES of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD! –
– As far as mutation and genetic drifts, it involves limitations of matter since mutation is an error in the replication process due to unrepaired damaged DNA or RNA genome… and genetic drift, is just that, a drift from limitation of matter whereas innate intelligence is limited through the limitation of matter. –
– It is very important to understand that chiropractic is inclusive of everyone regardless of creed, no-creed, religion, cultural beliefs and financial ability to pay. And I for one knows that.. YOU know that better than anyone else I know. 😉
Steve, although the cause/ceation of unversal intelligence is arguably outside the scope of chiropractic philososophy, there is definitely an indication that it comes from somewhere or Someone. The evolutionist rejects the faith that is necessary to explain it but provides no other reasonable explanation.
Joseph,
Which chiropractic principles are you referring to when, as you say, “there is definitely an indication that it comes from somewhere or Someone”? –
– For the life of me I don’t see any principles from 1through 33 that even infer such an assumption. It is my faith that definitely indicates that it comes from the CREATOR of creation. And chiropractic philosophy is based on rational logic and deductive reasoning is it not? NEVER faith. There are no conflicts to clarify here. 😉
Claude, the MP is gotten by inductrion which is not a conclusive method and requires either empiricism or faith. Since no one was an eyewitness to the creation of ui, faith is the only logical conclusion but that is outside the realm of chiropractic philososphy. Prin. #17 says there must be a cause to ui.
Good question Steve! It is true that ui is the cause of organization. but Principle # 17 is also true. “Every effect has a cause and every cause has effects..” However, the cause of ui, is outside the realm of our chiropractic philosophy leaving everyone to come up with their own cause or exercise another method of perception. I personally choose to employ another method, faith and believe that “In the beginning God…” one can choose to equate ui with God as some reading this blog do and that is fine but it leaves too many gaps in my mind and limits God. I am working on a paper to explain my thoughts and to try to reconcile God and ui. Thanks for asking the question.
Hey Joe,
Does the evolutionist deny that there is intelligence or evidence of intelligence in the universe? If chiro’ start with intelligence and evo’s start with matter (the big bang) don’t both imply there is something else, something preceding.
… and the “best” technique is WHEN the innate intelligence of the body adapts the EUF from our adjustic thrust and produce the vertebral adjustment. WHEN that happens, that was the “best” technique at that specific moment! 😉
Sorry Claude,
Almost missed this one, you jumped threads on me. Now that we’re here, does a post check verify the Innate Adjustment has been accomplished or only that the EUF has effected the matter.
Hey Joe,
I understand your convictions and look forward to seeing how you articulate the christian/chiropractic connection. That however is not what you asked. IMHO Chiropractic Philosophy involves the triune of life, evolution merely describes the developement of matter. As I understand it evo. attributes life to a process unknown. I think it would be foolish for a Chiro. to say the universe has not changed over eons of time and equally foolish for an evo. to say there is no sign of organization. Evolution is a W/L view, chiropractic is not. Obviously you have more knowledge of these subjects than I so please correct me if I am wrong.
With my limited understanding of Darwinian theory, it would seem that some aspects of chiropractic could be put into it and fit. Examples would be II’s purpose of adaptation.
However, it seems more appropriate that if Creationist viewpoint and chiropractic philosophy were a spectrum, that the evolutionist theory could be contained wholly within the chiropractic philosophy and also the creationist view. Just because they reject the faith necessary or deny the existence of an Intelligent Design, I think Darwin’s theory falls short on both ends.
Michael, first let me thank you for your input into this blog. Your understanding of chiropractic philosophy has grown and developed over the years and I see you as a true mentor in the OC movement. With regard to your comment, as I understand Darwinianism, there is no teleological aspect to it, no purpose. Everything is a matter of chance. Adaptation as we describe it in chiropractic does not occur, There is no difference between a positive and a negative survival value. Life does not even rise to the level of a “crapshoot”. At least in the game of craps you have a desire or purpose (although that is about the limit of my understanding of the game)
I think where my confusion is probably coming from is my rather limited knowledge and understanding of Darwinism. Also, perhaps my example and explanation fell short of making my point and questions more clear. I understand their lack of a teleological aspect, which made me consider that Darwin’s theories are but a tiny piece of an overall bigger picture. Like a 1000 piece puzzle, Darwin has 5 pieces stuck together somewhere and to him, that’s all that is necessary to explain the whole occuring, and mostly by chance. However, there are shortcoming in the explanations and while one can just deny or sweep away what they cannot fully explain, or cannot accurately answer some questions with their explanations, doesn’t make them right.
Also, I think I have always misinterpreted what they consider “natural selection” or “survival of the fittest” and never really considered it not being an adaptation of sorts without a purpose. I have never done a whole ton of study on Darwin’s theories because they run counter to a Creationist worldwiew, which I subscribe to. And so, perhaps in error, I just gave it a place on a back corner shelf that has some things that make sense and fit and others that don’t.
Just read in the paper that they might have discovered water on Mars.
How many times have we heard that! But if it winds up being somewhat corroborated, viewed as fact, then the next ‘read ‘ becomes even more interesting. Not that the journalist is a so called scientist, but the next implication suggested becomes all the more significant.
That there might have been, or be evidence of Life on Mars.
That is a pretty bold statetement, linking water and life together as though they had some parallel cause and effect relationship to each other.
So in the mind or minds of people, journalists, The News it would seem that cause and effect and assumptions Do Exist that link events.
Intelligent assumptions!
Does chance and purposeless ness always have to ride this wave of so called evolution? Why?
Why do the Facts of there being an intelligent universe, a universe that sprung forth our dynamic planet in any way contradict the triune that moves it and maintains it, and perhaps implicates purposes of successful life maintenance or unsuccessful life maintenance on other worlds?
I guess I don’t really know evolution or it’s core assumptions (chance and purposelessness), but it would seem that the authorities (The News) might not know either.
Good thing that I and all can count from 1 to 33 and stay agenda fixed. 🙂
If I am correct in my interpretation of Darwinian; survival of the fittest; I say yes. Anything with life has but one purpose; strive to live. Having life allowed the intelligence within to to survive and will survive to the best of their ability under their [particular circumstance. Problems occur once we think we know what is better for the body and take actions to mold the body the we we educatedly see fit.
Sure.
My understanding is that the innate design and function of a living body is adaptation, to adapt itself to whatever conditions are extant in order to survive, the only caveat being time and material.
My understanding of Darwinian “Evolution” is adaption: that which adapts to its environment successfully has a better chance to pass its ability to the next generation & so on through the generations, yielding “evolution”.
So, naturally, If you’re alive with interference you’ll live, survive, thrive, better without that interference. Chiropractors adjust to reduce interference, therefore those who are adjusted have a better chance to adapt successfully.
Works for me, even if I have slaughtered the actual constructs. 🙂
Hey Joe,
If we consider evolution the advancement of one form of being into another, ie. a one celled animal becoming a multi-celled animal or a monkey becoming a man, I think not. It seems Innate Intelligence or the group of laws we call by that name are very specific. Man gets man laws, tiger gets tiger laws, and amoeba gets amoeba laws.
According to Wiki, ” Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution. Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift.”…. Natural selection does not infer a purposeful/thoughtful stepping forward but merely taking all the random possibilities and removing the less functional ones. Furthermore, neither mutation or genetic drift sound like maintaining matter to me.
Therefore I have yet to reconcile these two ideas.
Steve,
You are absolutely correct in noting that innate intelligence (the law of life) is very specific to each species (same roots for both words). Matter expresses force created by intelligence. That’s WHY instructive information is coded for specific matter maintaining it in existence and/or active organization. –
– As for reconciling “these two ideas”, look at it this way… The CAUSE of adaptation is the function of innate intelligence which is to ADAPT universal forces and matter… HOW innate intelligence does that is way beyond our educated intelligence. Mutation and genetic drift, both involve limitations of matter.
Hear, Hear.
Claude, mutation and genetic drift both necessitate a positive species survival value which is the basis for evolution theory. Has science ever demonstrated an example of one?
Joseph,
The basis for evolution theory is natural selection which comes from nature (natura in latin which means “essential qualities and/or innate dispositions” according to wikipedia). Therefore the actual theory is based on the innate dispositions of a living thing. Sounds pretty much like a intelligence in matter giving to it “essential qualities” and maintain it in active organization. –
– The fact that evolutionists rejects the CAUSE of the major premise, is in no way problematic for chiropractic philosophy since the major premise is the START POINT of chiropractic. I mentioned many times before, chiropractic principles are INCLUSIVE of EVERY things in existence,EVERY “living things” and EVERY VERTEBRATA with regard to the practice of the chiropractic objective. I have people WHO choose to BE atheists and agnostic in my practice and I bet you had them too. Chiropractic is separate and distinct in so far as chiropractic deals with the LACVS for a full expression of the innate FORCES of the innate intelligence of the body. PERIOD! –
– As far as mutation and genetic drifts, it involves limitations of matter since mutation is an error in the replication process due to unrepaired damaged DNA or RNA genome… and genetic drift, is just that, a drift from limitation of matter whereas innate intelligence is limited through the limitation of matter. –
– It is very important to understand that chiropractic is inclusive of everyone regardless of creed, no-creed, religion, cultural beliefs and financial ability to pay. And I for one knows that.. YOU know that better than anyone else I know. 😉
I think “evolution” refers to species whereas Chiropractic refers to individuals.
Please correct me if I’m mistaken.
Joseph,
You asked: “Can chiropractic philosophy exist is a darwinian evolutionary Model? Why or why not?”
Where do YOU stand on this issue? 😉
Claude, it seems to me that darwinianism rejects the major premise and you cannot have chiropractic philosophy without the major premise.
Hey Joe,
Could you be more specific?
Steve, although the cause/ceation of unversal intelligence is arguably outside the scope of chiropractic philososophy, there is definitely an indication that it comes from somewhere or Someone. The evolutionist rejects the faith that is necessary to explain it but provides no other reasonable explanation.
Joseph,
Which chiropractic principles are you referring to when, as you say, “there is definitely an indication that it comes from somewhere or Someone”? –
– For the life of me I don’t see any principles from 1through 33 that even infer such an assumption. It is my faith that definitely indicates that it comes from the CREATOR of creation. And chiropractic philosophy is based on rational logic and deductive reasoning is it not? NEVER faith. There are no conflicts to clarify here. 😉
Claude, the MP is gotten by inductrion which is not a conclusive method and requires either empiricism or faith. Since no one was an eyewitness to the creation of ui, faith is the only logical conclusion but that is outside the realm of chiropractic philososphy. Prin. #17 says there must be a cause to ui.
Hey Joe,
I thought UI was the cause, of organization, are you implying UI is an effect? If so of what?
Good question Steve! It is true that ui is the cause of organization. but Principle # 17 is also true. “Every effect has a cause and every cause has effects..” However, the cause of ui, is outside the realm of our chiropractic philosophy leaving everyone to come up with their own cause or exercise another method of perception. I personally choose to employ another method, faith and believe that “In the beginning God…” one can choose to equate ui with God as some reading this blog do and that is fine but it leaves too many gaps in my mind and limits God. I am working on a paper to explain my thoughts and to try to reconcile God and ui. Thanks for asking the question.
Hey Joe,
Does the evolutionist deny that there is intelligence or evidence of intelligence in the universe? If chiro’ start with intelligence and evo’s start with matter (the big bang) don’t both imply there is something else, something preceding.
… and the “best” technique is WHEN the innate intelligence of the body adapts the EUF from our adjustic thrust and produce the vertebral adjustment. WHEN that happens, that was the “best” technique at that specific moment! 😉
Sorry Claude,
Almost missed this one, you jumped threads on me. Now that we’re here, does a post check verify the Innate Adjustment has been accomplished or only that the EUF has effected the matter.
Hey Joe,
I understand your convictions and look forward to seeing how you articulate the christian/chiropractic connection. That however is not what you asked. IMHO Chiropractic Philosophy involves the triune of life, evolution merely describes the developement of matter. As I understand it evo. attributes life to a process unknown. I think it would be foolish for a Chiro. to say the universe has not changed over eons of time and equally foolish for an evo. to say there is no sign of organization. Evolution is a W/L view, chiropractic is not. Obviously you have more knowledge of these subjects than I so please correct me if I am wrong.
With my limited understanding of Darwinian theory, it would seem that some aspects of chiropractic could be put into it and fit. Examples would be II’s purpose of adaptation.
However, it seems more appropriate that if Creationist viewpoint and chiropractic philosophy were a spectrum, that the evolutionist theory could be contained wholly within the chiropractic philosophy and also the creationist view. Just because they reject the faith necessary or deny the existence of an Intelligent Design, I think Darwin’s theory falls short on both ends.
Michael, first let me thank you for your input into this blog. Your understanding of chiropractic philosophy has grown and developed over the years and I see you as a true mentor in the OC movement. With regard to your comment, as I understand Darwinianism, there is no teleological aspect to it, no purpose. Everything is a matter of chance. Adaptation as we describe it in chiropractic does not occur, There is no difference between a positive and a negative survival value. Life does not even rise to the level of a “crapshoot”. At least in the game of craps you have a desire or purpose (although that is about the limit of my understanding of the game)
Joe,
Thank you for the compliment, that means a lot.
I think where my confusion is probably coming from is my rather limited knowledge and understanding of Darwinism. Also, perhaps my example and explanation fell short of making my point and questions more clear. I understand their lack of a teleological aspect, which made me consider that Darwin’s theories are but a tiny piece of an overall bigger picture. Like a 1000 piece puzzle, Darwin has 5 pieces stuck together somewhere and to him, that’s all that is necessary to explain the whole occuring, and mostly by chance. However, there are shortcoming in the explanations and while one can just deny or sweep away what they cannot fully explain, or cannot accurately answer some questions with their explanations, doesn’t make them right.
Also, I think I have always misinterpreted what they consider “natural selection” or “survival of the fittest” and never really considered it not being an adaptation of sorts without a purpose. I have never done a whole ton of study on Darwin’s theories because they run counter to a Creationist worldwiew, which I subscribe to. And so, perhaps in error, I just gave it a place on a back corner shelf that has some things that make sense and fit and others that don’t.
Just read in the paper that they might have discovered water on Mars.
How many times have we heard that! But if it winds up being somewhat corroborated, viewed as fact, then the next ‘read ‘ becomes even more interesting. Not that the journalist is a so called scientist, but the next implication suggested becomes all the more significant.
That there might have been, or be evidence of Life on Mars.
That is a pretty bold statetement, linking water and life together as though they had some parallel cause and effect relationship to each other.
So in the mind or minds of people, journalists, The News it would seem that cause and effect and assumptions Do Exist that link events.
Intelligent assumptions!
Does chance and purposeless ness always have to ride this wave of so called evolution? Why?
Why do the Facts of there being an intelligent universe, a universe that sprung forth our dynamic planet in any way contradict the triune that moves it and maintains it, and perhaps implicates purposes of successful life maintenance or unsuccessful life maintenance on other worlds?
I guess I don’t really know evolution or it’s core assumptions (chance and purposelessness), but it would seem that the authorities (The News) might not know either.
Good thing that I and all can count from 1 to 33 and stay agenda fixed. 🙂