I think Randomness is a more accurate word than Chaos.
Chaotic events abounds in nature (eg. non-predictable nature of weather systems, the patterns of tree branches, shore lines, fractal formulas applied to natural occuring events,etc. and to my thinking is more inline with our NORMAL (no rounding up or down >> Pi), a similar with uniqueness, versus Random, which is more of a theoretical concept that is more statistical in nature, more of the concept of AVERAGE, which chiropractic philosophically does NOT exist in the reality of an objects existence
Hang on David,
Merrium Webster: cha·os
noun \ˈkā-ˌäs\
complete confusion and disorder : a state in which behavior and events are not controlled by anything.
Because you can not predict the weather does not mean there are no laws (intelligence) governing the changes. Randomness is a concept that has attempted to explain a lot of things, until science saw deeper. Everything is subject to law.
“One question was always uppermost in my mind in my search for the
cause of disease. I desired to know why one person was ailing and his
associate, eating at the same table working in the same shop, at the same
bench, was not. Why? What difference was there in the two persons that
caused one to have pneumonia, catarrh, typhoid or rheumatism, while his
partner, similarly situated, escaped? Why? This question had worried
thousands for centuries and was answered in September, 1895”. DD Palmer 1910
from internet: >> SEE BELOW (I just upper cased some distinctions) >>
chaotic systems exhibit dynamical instability. The chief symptom of this is exponential divergence of trajectories exiting from a pair of nearby points .This is refereed to as having a positive Lyapunov exponent . Chaotic systems can have few degrees of FREEDOM and be entirely deterministic.
-RANDOM systems have a STATISTICAL distribution of trajectories ,which is ,in some sense,broad.A NOISY system is random. To contrast with the above,trajectories will separate diffusively,ie separation ~sgrt(t) , in time.Noisey systems are non-deterministic ,with external input with a prescribed probability distribution.
Interestingly,when noise ,which is random,is added to an otherwise deterministic dynamical system,it can actually SUPRESS the dynamical instability which underlies chaos . Thus RANDOMNESS actually can quench CHAOS. !!!
**************************************************
It would seem that my point is somewhat corroborated.
I’m in agreement with YOU Steve,
BUT Chaos would seem to be a process, that might be a property or action of Universal Matter, given to it by UI.
Randomness is a completely non-deterministic system which in my understanding of Mechanistic Viewpoints, would tend to shy away from such concepts that would include the words FREEDOM and DETERMINISTIC in the same breath.
While I’m pretty sure that mechanists utilize the tools of mathematics, and terms like chaos and random are employed within that science, in a our philosophical context as a description of vitalism I would suggest that chaos might be a gentler word to use within the vitalism context, while randomness, I suggest has a colder, more LIFELESS, less Intelligent implication. yes/no?
Are you suggesting that in your statement
‘What difference was there in the two persons that
caused one to have pneumonia, catarrh, typhoid or rheumatism, while his partner, similarly situated, escaped?’
THE CAUSE IS due to the presence of Vitalism? Interesting that we’re back on this topic of DISEASE. I hear you, I would want to believe you, but I think others might in the pure, philosophical, deductive sense negate ANYTHING relating disease to VITALISM, or at least CHIROPRACTIC vitalism. I’m at a loss to put my stake in the ground on this one, at this time.
The point of the quote was that DD found a difference that had been chalked up to random luck. Yes, DD added more before, and after, OC Philosophy.
Lack of vitality and disease I would think, are more than casually related. This may not be within the realm of OC but in reality.
Steve,
But what about my point concerning the distinction between
chaos and randomness. Any final thoughts. Or is this a non discussion discussion?
Do you really think that before DD, Sickness or Disease was thought to occur outside of cause and effect, that being random Luck?
According to the AUTHORITY of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, the law of organization (universal intelligence) is in ALL e/matter CONTINUALLY giving to it ALL of its PROPERTIES and ACTIONS thus maintains it in EXISTENCE. In order to give properties and actions to e/matter, universal INTELLIGENCE creates INTELLIGENT forces that unites INTELLIGENCE and e/matter, thus MAINTAINING e/matter in EXISTENCE. Since Newton’s law of conservation of e/matter states that e/matter is NEVER destroyed and NEVER created within the universe, from the start point of the major premise, the forces of the law of organization are INTELLIGENT and therefore, could NEVER be dis-organized. Otherwise, the universal law of organization would be broken and existence would cease. –
– Chaos and randomness are simply other words that describe the limitation of educated intelligence which is a product of the limitation of e/matter. It proves the point that Joseph was making in his opening remarks. It is the educated intelligence of the mechanist that is OIBU with its limited understanding. Hence, force is not vital to the mechanists.
Way, way, way, way, way…
Claude,
Did I read that correctly?
You said:
‘limitation of educated intelligence which is a product of the limitation of e/matter’
Do you stand by that or deduce that?
Cause and effect on LOM causing limitation of educated intelligence?
Isn’t Logic and Chiropractic Philosophy and Everything we comprehend, physical or metaphysical a product of educated intelligence? And the number 33? Limited! because of Matter.
Definitions of words like Chaos or Randomness or Philosophy or pointers that abstract concepts. You’re just saying that you, by opinion hold the concept of chaos and randomness as distortions, but you haven’t proved it.
Limitation of Educated Intelligence a product of LOM.
Really! 😉
Chaos/random, semantics.
Do you think the germ theory explains cause and effect?
Of course limitation of educated intelligence is a product of limitation of e/matter. This is philosophy 101 and we discussed this at length in past blogs. Look it up. –
– Anyway, briefly stated from a chiropractic philosophical stand point, the educated brain functions as organ and is used by innate intelligence to adapt the body to the external environment. Also, it functions to enable us to reason and is part of memory and will. Educated intelligence is the CAPABILITY of the educated brain to function. The educated brain is a physical part of the physical brain and the educated intelligence is its CAPABILITY to function. For example, you were born with an educated brain which has the potential to develop and function. Right now, your educated intelligence is limited by the lack of understanding of chiropractic philosophy due to your lack of information. Your educated intelligence is a product of your educated brain which is comprised of e/matter and is limited (pri.24). Your educated brain at birth was 100%. Your educated intelligence was 0% and has been increasing ever since WITHIN the limits of your e/matter and the amount of information with which it is supplied. Therefore, together without condemnation, we conclude that educated intelligence is a product of e/matter, perception and information and subject to the limitation of its living e/matter (pri.24). 😉
Steve,
As far as semantics,
We spend post after post, page after page distinguishing
between dis-ease and disease, universal intelligence and innate intelligence. To a mechanist ui and ii are the same. Average/Normal – the same
It’s all about semantics, that’s why we’re here, to cement the semant
(iron out the differences)
Just because this isn’t a physics blog doesn’t mean we can’t distinguish without condemnation proper words and their meanings, to the nth degree. But I hear ya. It’s funny, I remember when my daughter and her peers started saying, ‘That’s random’!
I said, huh? Random? (she of course meant it like, that’s out of left field), but I thought only in terms of it’s mathematical or let’s say, more traditional usage (not the Street vernacular).
Anyway
germ theory? cause and effect? In some cases, yeh, in other cases no, so as a theory (implying all cases) >> NO
Steve, Partially, which means both Pasteur and the other guy Beauchamp? were both partially correct.
Claude,
1st of all thank you for saying
‘Right now, your educated intelligence is limited by the lack of understanding’ and not LOM ;). Yeh I know, I said it, you didn’t.
2nd. Sometimes I think the language gets in the way of the thought.
Point being LOM limits the expression of EVERTHING, educated and innate intelligence, but that wasn’t how you meant the
using of WORDS like chaos or randomness.
You can’t say that chaos and randomness are limited concepts because they come from educated intelligence and educated intelligence is limited by LOM?
That’s mixing apples and oranges or putting the cart before the horse, or whatever the expression is.
Chaos means something >> And it would appear that it has meaning in one of the universal laws
Randomness means something else >> Is more of a statistical referencing word and from what I’ve seen means complete and utter non-intelligent distribution. Chaos doesn’t, from what I’ve seen
Innate Intelligence is a word. It means and would appear to exist in a concept that is greater than can be expressed by words, but we point to it by a as you would say, EDUCATED INTELLIGENT collection of symbols conceived and abstracted using the frontal cortex or the educated brain.
Anyway, Claude let’s not get off point (Imagine me saying that 🙂
To come home, as far as Joes original post
Mechanists do not deny the existence of a force, just that it is a vital force.
I would agree, although I’m not sure that Mechanists would define force as the same as the Chiropractic Vitalist
Nor do vitalists deny there are mechanisms, just that they lack chaos.
I think Randomness is a more accurate word than Chaos.
Chaotic events abounds in nature (eg. non-predictable nature of weather systems, the patterns of tree branches, shore lines, fractal formulas applied to natural occuring events,etc. and to my thinking is more inline with our NORMAL (no rounding up or down >> Pi), a similar with uniqueness, versus Random, which is more of a theoretical concept that is more statistical in nature, more of the concept of AVERAGE, which chiropractic philosophically does NOT exist in the reality of an objects existence
Hang on David,
Merrium Webster: cha·os
noun \ˈkā-ˌäs\
complete confusion and disorder : a state in which behavior and events are not controlled by anything.
Because you can not predict the weather does not mean there are no laws (intelligence) governing the changes. Randomness is a concept that has attempted to explain a lot of things, until science saw deeper. Everything is subject to law.
“One question was always uppermost in my mind in my search for the
cause of disease. I desired to know why one person was ailing and his
associate, eating at the same table working in the same shop, at the same
bench, was not. Why? What difference was there in the two persons that
caused one to have pneumonia, catarrh, typhoid or rheumatism, while his
partner, similarly situated, escaped? Why? This question had worried
thousands for centuries and was answered in September, 1895”. DD Palmer 1910
from internet: >> SEE BELOW (I just upper cased some distinctions) >>
chaotic systems exhibit dynamical instability. The chief symptom of this is exponential divergence of trajectories exiting from a pair of nearby points .This is refereed to as having a positive Lyapunov exponent . Chaotic systems can have few degrees of FREEDOM and be entirely deterministic.
-RANDOM systems have a STATISTICAL distribution of trajectories ,which is ,in some sense,broad.A NOISY system is random. To contrast with the above,trajectories will separate diffusively,ie separation ~sgrt(t) , in time.Noisey systems are non-deterministic ,with external input with a prescribed probability distribution.
Interestingly,when noise ,which is random,is added to an otherwise deterministic dynamical system,it can actually SUPRESS the dynamical instability which underlies chaos . Thus RANDOMNESS actually can quench CHAOS. !!!
**************************************************
It would seem that my point is somewhat corroborated.
I’m in agreement with YOU Steve,
BUT Chaos would seem to be a process, that might be a property or action of Universal Matter, given to it by UI.
Randomness is a completely non-deterministic system which in my understanding of Mechanistic Viewpoints, would tend to shy away from such concepts that would include the words FREEDOM and DETERMINISTIC in the same breath.
While I’m pretty sure that mechanists utilize the tools of mathematics, and terms like chaos and random are employed within that science, in a our philosophical context as a description of vitalism I would suggest that chaos might be a gentler word to use within the vitalism context, while randomness, I suggest has a colder, more LIFELESS, less Intelligent implication. yes/no?
Are you suggesting that in your statement
‘What difference was there in the two persons that
caused one to have pneumonia, catarrh, typhoid or rheumatism, while his partner, similarly situated, escaped?’
THE CAUSE IS due to the presence of Vitalism? Interesting that we’re back on this topic of DISEASE. I hear you, I would want to believe you, but I think others might in the pure, philosophical, deductive sense negate ANYTHING relating disease to VITALISM, or at least CHIROPRACTIC vitalism. I’m at a loss to put my stake in the ground on this one, at this time.
The point of the quote was that DD found a difference that had been chalked up to random luck. Yes, DD added more before, and after, OC Philosophy.
Lack of vitality and disease I would think, are more than casually related. This may not be within the realm of OC but in reality.
Steve,
But what about my point concerning the distinction between
chaos and randomness. Any final thoughts. Or is this a non discussion discussion?
Do you really think that before DD, Sickness or Disease was thought to occur outside of cause and effect, that being random Luck?
According to the AUTHORITY of the 33 principles of chiropractic’s basic science, the law of organization (universal intelligence) is in ALL e/matter CONTINUALLY giving to it ALL of its PROPERTIES and ACTIONS thus maintains it in EXISTENCE. In order to give properties and actions to e/matter, universal INTELLIGENCE creates INTELLIGENT forces that unites INTELLIGENCE and e/matter, thus MAINTAINING e/matter in EXISTENCE. Since Newton’s law of conservation of e/matter states that e/matter is NEVER destroyed and NEVER created within the universe, from the start point of the major premise, the forces of the law of organization are INTELLIGENT and therefore, could NEVER be dis-organized. Otherwise, the universal law of organization would be broken and existence would cease. –
– Chaos and randomness are simply other words that describe the limitation of educated intelligence which is a product of the limitation of e/matter. It proves the point that Joseph was making in his opening remarks. It is the educated intelligence of the mechanist that is OIBU with its limited understanding. Hence, force is not vital to the mechanists.
Way, way, way, way, way…
Claude,
Did I read that correctly?
You said:
‘limitation of educated intelligence which is a product of the limitation of e/matter’
Do you stand by that or deduce that?
Cause and effect on LOM causing limitation of educated intelligence?
Isn’t Logic and Chiropractic Philosophy and Everything we comprehend, physical or metaphysical a product of educated intelligence? And the number 33? Limited! because of Matter.
Definitions of words like Chaos or Randomness or Philosophy or pointers that abstract concepts. You’re just saying that you, by opinion hold the concept of chaos and randomness as distortions, but you haven’t proved it.
Limitation of Educated Intelligence a product of LOM.
Really! 😉
Chaos/random, semantics.
Do you think the germ theory explains cause and effect?
David,
Of course limitation of educated intelligence is a product of limitation of e/matter. This is philosophy 101 and we discussed this at length in past blogs. Look it up. –
– Anyway, briefly stated from a chiropractic philosophical stand point, the educated brain functions as organ and is used by innate intelligence to adapt the body to the external environment. Also, it functions to enable us to reason and is part of memory and will. Educated intelligence is the CAPABILITY of the educated brain to function. The educated brain is a physical part of the physical brain and the educated intelligence is its CAPABILITY to function. For example, you were born with an educated brain which has the potential to develop and function. Right now, your educated intelligence is limited by the lack of understanding of chiropractic philosophy due to your lack of information. Your educated intelligence is a product of your educated brain which is comprised of e/matter and is limited (pri.24). Your educated brain at birth was 100%. Your educated intelligence was 0% and has been increasing ever since WITHIN the limits of your e/matter and the amount of information with which it is supplied. Therefore, together without condemnation, we conclude that educated intelligence is a product of e/matter, perception and information and subject to the limitation of its living e/matter (pri.24). 😉
Steve,
As far as semantics,
We spend post after post, page after page distinguishing
between dis-ease and disease, universal intelligence and innate intelligence. To a mechanist ui and ii are the same. Average/Normal – the same
It’s all about semantics, that’s why we’re here, to cement the semant
(iron out the differences)
Just because this isn’t a physics blog doesn’t mean we can’t distinguish without condemnation proper words and their meanings, to the nth degree. But I hear ya. It’s funny, I remember when my daughter and her peers started saying, ‘That’s random’!
I said, huh? Random? (she of course meant it like, that’s out of left field), but I thought only in terms of it’s mathematical or let’s say, more traditional usage (not the Street vernacular).
Anyway
germ theory? cause and effect? In some cases, yeh, in other cases no, so as a theory (implying all cases) >> NO
Steve, Partially, which means both Pasteur and the other guy Beauchamp? were both partially correct.
Claude,
1st of all thank you for saying
‘Right now, your educated intelligence is limited by the lack of understanding’ and not LOM ;). Yeh I know, I said it, you didn’t.
2nd. Sometimes I think the language gets in the way of the thought.
Point being LOM limits the expression of EVERTHING, educated and innate intelligence, but that wasn’t how you meant the
using of WORDS like chaos or randomness.
You can’t say that chaos and randomness are limited concepts because they come from educated intelligence and educated intelligence is limited by LOM?
That’s mixing apples and oranges or putting the cart before the horse, or whatever the expression is.
Chaos means something >> And it would appear that it has meaning in one of the universal laws
Randomness means something else >> Is more of a statistical referencing word and from what I’ve seen means complete and utter non-intelligent distribution. Chaos doesn’t, from what I’ve seen
Innate Intelligence is a word. It means and would appear to exist in a concept that is greater than can be expressed by words, but we point to it by a as you would say, EDUCATED INTELLIGENT collection of symbols conceived and abstracted using the frontal cortex or the educated brain.
Anyway, Claude let’s not get off point (Imagine me saying that 🙂
To come home, as far as Joes original post
Mechanists do not deny the existence of a force, just that it is a vital force.
I would agree, although I’m not sure that Mechanists would define force as the same as the Chiropractic Vitalist
David,
Yet your lack of understanding is limited by LOM. 😉
argh 🙁 Clock is ticking my friend, for all of us. P6